Arab News reported A two-day conference organized by the Makkah-based Muslim World League yesterday called for a consultative commission in order to take legal action against those who abuse Islam and its Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and Islamic sanctities, at local and international courts of justice, the Saudi Press Agency said.
You think Islam is being abused by a few cartoons? You should see what the secular press says about Christians. No one ever did a figure of Muhammad in a bottle of Urine, or a painting of his mother, covered with dung, and insisted that it was protected artistic expression, did they?The conference titled “In Defense of the Prophet” called upon Islamic countries and governments to stand united to defend the Islamic faith and its Prophet. It denounced the smear campaigns to tarnish the image of the Prophet and urged Muslims to make all-out efforts to project the true picture of Islam and the great divine teachings of the Prophet.... Jamal Badawi, a Canadian-Muslim expert on Islam, spoke about the Prophet’s outstanding influence on human history. “There is no other personality who has made such a positive impact on history,”
What about Jesus Christ, who said Love your neighbor as yourself. or Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.. Compare that with the Qu'ran saying Surah 5:51 says O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. and Surah 9:29 which says Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, [Jews and Christians] until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.he told the conference.
9 comments:
Hello,
I was wondering, don't you think it is christians who should be more mad against the media for what has been made fun of about Jesus and other symbols of christianity? NOT that Muslims should be less mad?
I am very sure that Muslims would be almost as mad if the cartoons published were about Christ or Mosses, instead of Mohammed.
Maybe Muslims take religion more seriously/ Maybe they take it as serious as it should be taken?
and I don't mean that Jews and Christians are careless about religion, but most of them are, and their public reaction to the mockings of christianity/judaism during the past years/decades proves that.
Anyways, I am here to negotiate not attack. You were injustice about what you said regarding Quran, those two verses deal with a specific event, but you used them to say something general (I can explain further if you want) but what you did is unfair.
In the same sense that those two verses were specific, there are other verses, some of them are general in describing the relationship between Muslims and the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians), that says for example:
"And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), those who believe in Allah and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before Allah. They do not sell the Verses of Allah for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, Allah is Swift in account." (2:199)
And (although this is also said for a specific case, when Jews betrayed an accord with the prophet...):
"Verily, you will find the strongest among men in enmity to the believers (Muslims) the Jews and those who are Al-Mushrikoon (monotheists), and you will find the nearest in love to the believers (Muslims) those who say: "We are Christians." That is because amongst them are priests and monks, and they are not proud." (5:82)
Also, and most importantly,
"113 Not all of them are alike; a party of the people of the Scripture stand for the right, they recite the Verses of Allah during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer.
114 They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin Al-Maroof (general term to all good deeds) and forbid Al-Munkar (general term to bad deeds); and they hasten in (all) good works; and they are among the righteous.
115 And whatever good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knows well those who are Al-Muttaqoon (the pious). (2:113-115)
I think the problem is: you are making yourself believe that Islam creates enmity against Jews and Christians, but it really does not if you free your mind from prejudice and misconception and read the verses carefully (and maybe understand the purpose of the verses before quoting them)
That is, only, IF you wanted to free your mind from prejudice and misconception about Islam.
Anyways, I just stated a new blog concerning Islam. It'd be nice if you paid me a visit. I really would like to continue this discussion.
http://introduce-islam.blogspot.com
I was wondering, don't you think it is christians who should be more mad against the media for what has been made fun of about Jesus and other symbols of christianity? NOT that Muslims should be less mad?
I am sad when I see Christ degraded. I am also sad when I see Jews ridiculed, or Muslims unfairly portraid.
But I know that Christ is much more powerful than those that ridicule him, and that they will be punished on Judgement Day. And I never thought of rioting in the streets, since I know that Christ would not want that - he preached peace.
I am very sure that Muslims would be almost as mad if the cartoons published were about Christ or Mosses, instead of Mohammed.
I doubt it, but if you want to urge Muslims to go out in the street the next time Christ is ridiculed, go ahead.
Maybe Muslims take religion more seriously/ Maybe they take it as serious as it should be taken?
I respect Muslims that pray five times a day, and who other wise follow the five pillars of Islam.
I do not respect Muslims that riot and burn buildings because of a few cartoons, or who fly planes into buildings, or who set off bombs just to kill innocents.
and I don't mean that Jews and Christians are careless about religion, but most of them are, and their public reaction to the mockings of christianity/judaism during the past years/decades proves that.
One does not have to have a violent reaction in the streets to express faith (unless your faith is just in violence)
Anyways, I am here to negotiate not attack. You were injustice about what you said regarding Quran, those two verses deal with a specific event, but you used them to say something general (I can explain further if you want) but what you did is unfair.
Try to explain it if you think you can. There are many more violence verses you can try to explain away.
In the same sense that those two verses were specific, there are other verses, some of them are general in describing the relationship between Muslims and the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians), that says for example:
"And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), those who believe in Allah and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before Allah. They do not sell the Verses of Allah for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, Allah is Swift in account." (2:199)
It is true that in the early verses we are all "People of the Book" (or ahl al Kitâb) Surat Al 'Imran, 64 (Qur'an 3:64) says "O People of the Book! Let us rally to a common formula to be binding on both us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God.", but when Muhammad found that Christians and Jews would not leave their faith and embrace his new religion, then we got Surah 5:51 which says "O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust" and Surah 9:29 which says "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, [Jews and Christians] until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
And (although this is also said for a specific case, when Jews betrayed an accord with the prophet...):
"Verily, you will find the strongest among men in enmity to the believers (Muslims) the Jews and those who are Al-Mushrikoon (monotheists), and you will find the nearest in love to the believers (Muslims) those who say: "We are Christians." That is because amongst them are priests and monks, and they are not proud." (5:82)
That was when he had given up on converting Jews, but still thought he could convert some Christians. As indicated above, in the later verses he turned on both.
Also, and most importantly,
"113 Not all of them are alike; a party of the people of the Scripture stand for the right, they recite the Verses of Allah during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer. They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin Al-Maroof (general term to all good deeds) and forbid Al-Munkar (general term to bad deeds); and they hasten in (all) good works; and they are among the righteous. And whatever good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knows well those who are Al-Muttaqoon (the pious). (2:113-115)
Still in Surah 2; try the later Surahs.
I think the problem is: you are making yourself believe that Islam creates enmity against Jews and Christians, but it really does not if you free your mind from prejudice and misconception and read the verses carefully (and maybe understand the purpose of the verses before quoting them)
Muslims in the United States are permitted to have Bibles, to celebrate their holidays, and to build new mosques. If I were to go to Saudia Arabia, could I take my Bible with me? Can you send me some pictures of Nativity Scenes in Saudia Arabia (or just about any Muslim country - remember Jesus is mentioned in the Qu'ran. Can Christians in Saudia Arabia, or just about any Muslim country, build a new church?
That is, only, IF you wanted to free your mind from prejudice and misconception about Islam.
Or from knowing the truth about Islam???
Anyways, I just stated a new blog concerning Islam. It'd be nice if you paid me a visit. I really would like to continue this discussion.
http://introduce-islam.blogspot.com
Good luck.
Muslim, I tried responding at your blog, but you have the comment area in a window that cannot be made full screen, and cannot be scrolled, and so you cannot get to the bottom to click submit
Don!
thanks alot for taking the effort on replying to my comment thoroughfully.
My comment section is working fine, and I am getting comments already, maybe there is a problem with your internet browser? please let me know if you still cannot comment so I'd just change the comment section from a pop-up window to be just under the post.
umm,
I am sad when I see Christ degraded. I am also sad when I see Jews ridiculed, or Muslims unfairly portraid.
I respect your feeling, I feel that way too, and I think that is how we all should feel about it. Unfortunately, there will always be Jewish, Christian and Muslim fanaticts who just want the other religions wiped off earth.
But I know that Christ is much more powerful than those that ridicule him, and that they will be punished on Judgement Day. And I never thought of rioting in the streets, since I know that Christ would not want that - he preached peace.
I know that Christ is much more powerful too, and I know that Mohammed is not going to be effected by such ridiculous acts. God is Most Powerful and He certainly can annihilate them off existence if He wishes to. I am certain that anyone who tries to ridicule Judaism, Christianity or Islam will be rewarded with eternal hell fire in the afterlife. Still, I do not agree that we should let the dogs bark at us. Mohammed did preach peace, and God ordered us to choose peace whenever possible. At the same time, however, we are ordered to fight, and with fierce, those who try to attack Islam and Muslims. You can’t always keep peace with only peace, and truly, sometimes you have to fight for peace. Similarly, a country cannot be stable and feel secure without a strong police force and well trained army.
I doubt it, but if you want to urge Muslims to go out in the street the next time Christ is ridiculed, go ahead.
I am definitely sure that if news were spread in streets of Arab cities regarding cartoons ridiculing Christ or Mosses then people will be very upset. Of course it won’t be on the same level of anger because the common Muslims are more deeply attached to Mohammed than other prophets (because he’s Arab, etc…)
I respect Muslims that pray five times a day, and who otherwise follow the five pillars of Islam.
I do not respect Muslims that riot and burn buildings because of a few cartoons, or who fly planes into buildings, or who set off bombs just to kill innocents.
Thank you, no one respects or should respect those who kill innocents.
One does not have to have a violent reaction in the streets to express faith (unless your faith is just in violence)
It is about expressing love, not faith. And I don’t really see any problem with that. Think if all these peoples’ mothers were harassed, would they have the right to be angry in the streets?
Muslims were not trying to defend the prophet Mohammed; because they all know that what happened won’t affect him. They were making the point that “this is what you get if you mess with whom I love.”
Try to explain it if you think you can. There are many more violence verses you can try to explain away.
I’d be happy to do that, there are many of them. Jews consistently backstabbed Muslims in accords and treaties and still God gave them many chances. And many verses came down talking about forgiving them (like the ones I mentioned previously), but their consistent hate and betrayal had eventually resulted in the verses:
Verily, the worst of moving (living) creatures before Allah are those who disbelieve, - so they shall not believe [the verses here talk about Jews]. They are those with whom you made a covenant, but they break their covenant every time and they do not fear Allah. So if you gain the mastery over them in war, punish them severely in order to disperse those who are behind them, so that they may learn a lesson. (8: 55-57)
It is true that in the early verses we are all "People of the Book" (or ahl al Kitâb) Surat Al 'Imran, 64 (Qur'an 3:64) says "O People of the Book! Let us rally to a common formula to be binding on both us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God.", but when Muhammad found that Christians and Jews would not leave their faith and embrace his new religion, then we got Surah 5:51 which says "O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust" and Surah 9:29 which says "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, [Jews and Christians] until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Actually, I’m not sure how early is the verse of (3:64) but Al-Imran is not very early anyway… but the verse (9:29) came down in year 3 Hijra, and it’s way before the vese in 5:51. Therefore, it is not like Islam gradually created hatred, but it was giving chances to non-Muslims to stop the hatred/war and negotiate/make accords with Muslims. And this verse is later than the one in 5:51
((But if they incline to peace, you also incline to it, and (put your) trust in Allah. Verily, He is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower.)) (8:61)
That was when he had given up on converting Jews, but still thought he could convert some Christians. As indicated above, in the later verses he turned on both.
Again, in the later verses it confirms that if they inclined to peace, then we must incline to peace as well. Mohammed never gave up on converting Jews or Christians, nor did Muslims ever; not unless they declare hatred/war on Muslims. But all these verses were regarding making accords with Jews/Christians. Making accords means to have Jews/Christians stay on their religion, pay Jiziya [instead of Kharaaj. Jiziya is a constant tax that non-Muslims pay for living in the Muslim state, Kharaaj is a percentage of all income that Muslims pay to the state, which is usually way more than Jiziya] and have their religious freedom and their human rights protected in return.
This is what Jews and Christians fought against; they did not want to make accords with Muslims at all. That is when verses declared war on them; when did not want peace and there were no choices left.
Still in Surah 2; try the later Surahs.
Surah 2 does not mean it came down first. Some verses of Surah 2 is actually the very last verses that came down. Again, the latest verse regarding that matter was the one that said that Jews are not worthy of accords and should be killed whenever Muslims gained mastery over them. And then says that IF they inclined to peace, then we must incline to peace. Just to prove that Islam is always pro peace. Even through that, we know that Jews will not incline for peace ever with Muslims.
Muslims in the United States are permitted to have Bibles, to celebrate their holidays, and to build new mosques. If I were to go to Saudia Arabia, could I take my Bible with me? Can you send me some pictures of Nativity Scenes in Saudia Arabia (or just about any Muslim country - remember Jesus is mentioned in the Qu'ran. Can Christians in Saudia Arabia, or just about any Muslim country, build a new church?
*You meant they are permitted to have Qurans.
Would Christians ever let Muslims build a mosque in the Vatican? Of course not, because there must be a geographical privacy for the religion. It is in your religion! And we respect it, so should you respect our geographical privacy, Saudi Arabia is the heart of Islam. and I guarantee you that there is no one single non-Muslim citizen in Saudi Arabia. That is something for sure, there are few hundreds of thousands of Christians indeed, but they all are accepted into the country for temporary work visas, and upon acceptance they must respect the rules and traditions of the country they are going into.
Exclude Saudi Arabia and the Vatican and tell me who has more rights. Look at the rights of Christians in Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Egypt… they have equal rights to Muslims even though they are not more than 15% of the population of the total population of these countries. In Iraq I remember that Alcohol shop were forbidden unless the owner is Christian! How cool is that?!
Then turn your face and look at Muslims at the west. They can’t have the right to do most of their basic religious duties, attending Friday prayer for example, or wearing Hijab. I know colleges in Europe that does not accept Muslims into some of their majors. Oh and, I am not talking about immigrants, I am talking about native citizens who are Muslim converts.
Or from knowing the truth about Islam???
The Quran and all information of Islam is open for public, anyone is welcome not only to read it, but to read it and criticize and think critically of it. You are more than welcome to discover the truth about Islam, but you will need to be very open minded, and think very critically, be objective, and don’t restrain your thoughts with presumptions and prejudice, that is the most important.
Good luck.
Thank you, I don’t believe in luck though. It's about divine support.
thanks alot for taking the effort on replying to my comment thoroughfully.
I believe that a reasonable comment deserves a reasonable response, even if I disagree with it
My comment section is working fine, and I am getting comments already, maybe there is a problem with your internet browser? please let me know if you still cannot comment so I'd just change the comment section from a pop-up window to be just under the post.
I cannot with my primary browser Firefox 1.5.0.9. Interesting IE7 does show the scroll but Firefox does not, and does not allow the window to be maximized.
I respect your feeling, I feel that way too, and I think that is how we all should feel about it. Unfortunately, there will always be Jewish, Christian and Muslim fanaticts who just want the other religions wiped off earth.
From what I have seen, the Jews (in Israel) only want to live in peace with their neighbors, and only attack when they are attacked.
And Christians, nowdays at least, want to spread their religion, but by persuading others to convert, i.e. they do not seek to convert by the sword, and they do not give people a choice to convert, pay a tax to live as second class citizens, or die.
God is Most Powerful and He certainly can annihilate them off existence if He wishes to
True, and because He doesn't, it must not bother Him that much.
... God ordered us to choose peace whenever possible. At the same time, however, we are ordered to fight, and with fierce, those who try to attack Islam and Muslims
Jesus said If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic.. Which is the true Religion of Peace.
I am definitely sure that if news were spread in streets of Arab cities regarding cartoons ridiculing Christ or Mosses then people will be very upset.
They only have to read the Arab Press to daily see cartoons making fun of Jews. I suspect some depict Moses. And probably some depict Christ or Christians.
Of course it won’t be on the same level of anger because the common Muslims are more deeply attached to Mohammed than other prophets (because he’s Arab, etc…)
And because their opresssive governments tell them it is all the fault of the West.
It is about expressing love, not faith.
People burn buildings and kill people over a cartoon, and it is expressing love. Boy do you guys need to learn more about expressing love.
the verse (9:29) came down in year 3 Hijra, and it’s way before the vese in 5:51.
So "Fight... (even if they are) of the People of the Book," predates "take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors". It still abbrogates 3:64
Surah 2 does not mean it came down first.
Why put them in the order of size?
You meant they are permitted to have Qurans.
Yes it was a typo.
Would Christians ever let Muslims build a mosque in the Vatican? Of course not, because there must be a geographical privacy for the religion.
The Vatican is 0.44 SQ KM. I am not suggesting building one in the Ka'bah. I did not even suggest building one in Mecca (although it is much larger than the Vatican). But Saudi Arabia is an area of about 865,000 square miles
I guarantee you that there is no one single non-Muslim citizen in Saudi Arabia.
Certainly he would be afraid to admit it if he was, but as you indicate there are hundreds of thousands of guest workers, and they deserve a place to worship.
In Iraq I remember that Alcohol shop were forbidden unless the owner is Christian! How cool is that?!
The government allows it, then the Islamists burn down his store.
Then turn your face and look at Muslims at the west. They can’t have the right to do most of their basic religious duties, attending Friday prayer for example, or wearing Hijab.
What Western Country forbids attending Friday Prayers. And I don't know of any that forbid wearing the Hijab. The Nijab, perhaps, because some men have worn the Nijab and robbed stores, where the owner dropped his guard, thinking they were women.
do you live on mars my friend?
Jews in Israel do not attack if not attacked first?!
You had millions of Jews immigrating to Palestine since 1930s, killing thousands of people and kicking them out of their houses with the help of British Army... since then, thousands of mothers and children have died because of Israeli aggression against civilians. Even Israelis themselves admit that they do that! The Palestinian body count has crossed a million lives long time ago.
And ... I said Christians who are not more than 15% of population, live EQUALLY to Muslims, which part of this sentence you don't understand? They are not second-class citizens!
For God's sake, they don't even pay income tax!!! Christians in a Muslim state have more rights than you do right now, even if you were living in the Vatican.
Instead of you saying “give people a choice to convert, pay a tax to live as second class citizens, or die.” How about you say “allow them to embrace Islam if they wish to, and if they don’t then they can live and live peacefully and have all their rights including religious rights guaranteed.”
But hey, how about you read couple of paragraphs of history and see what Christians did to Muslims when they invaded the middle east. Do not tell me those were ‘bad’ Christians because the entire crusader campaigns began after the direct orders of the pope back then.
The pope cannot be wrong can he?
Christians did not spare one life, did not spare one soul. Muslims couldn’t even negotiate, or pay anything, or convert … they were just brutally killed. Men, Women and Children all alike.
Christians killed Jews too and never spared a life!
History records that crusaders were more monstrous and left much more destruction in Muslim lands even than what the Mongols had done in the thirteenth century.
True, and because He does not, it must not bother Him that much.
Wow, so, do you mean that God does not bother about his son being cursed or mocked? What kinds of a father is that? That must be one careless God. Because if he created passion in the heart of men which make them rage in fury if they sees their sons hurt, how come God did not have that passion toward whom you think is His son?
Jesus said If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic.. Which is the true Religion of Peace.
Wait, so, religion of peace means let everyone beat you up while you smile? And then have your stuff taken away and grin? Then have your sister raped and give them your mother afterwards? Great.
Then how come Christians go to wars?
And how come Christians have this bloody history?
Did Jesus say anything about murdering the guts out of Muslims? How come then that happened in the crusades?
Peace cannot be maintained with passivism, there must be a force to maintain and keep the peace, and makes sure that no one violates this peace, and makes sure to punish those who attempt to violate it.
They only have to read the Arab Press to daily see cartoons making fun of Jews. I suspect some depict Moses. And probably some depict Christ or Christians.
I don’t think that this is true at all, I have never seen a cartoon making fun of Jews. There might be many cartoons mocking Israelis, but not Jews [for their religion, that is]. Even if there were cartoons making fun of Jews, that still does not have to do anything with what I said. Mosses and Jesus are messengers that Muslims highly respect and believe in, regardless of what Jews and Christians believe in them. We are more entitled to believe in them than you, because both of Jews and Christians attempted to kill both Mosses and Jesus.
People burn buildings and kill people over a cartoon, and it is expressing love. Boy do you guys need to learn more about expressing love.
I don’t recall anyone being killed. And yes. If someone harasses with your mother, you don’t tell him to harass with your father, no, you go and beat them up, that is how you prove that you love your mother. Otherwise, you are not man enough, or you do not what love is.
So "Fight... (even if they are) of the People of the Book," predates "take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors". It still abbrogates 3:64
No, fight those who broke the accord from the people of the book. Don’t try to manipulate words.
Why put them in the order of size?
They are not in order of size. God actually sorted them for many important reasons. Most importantly, to help non-Muslims understand Islam. After the opening, the first and longest chapter is about Jews, and the second is about Christians, and this introduction with these two chapters shows you what God ordered Jews and Christians and how Jews disobeyed and how Christians went astray. And this is very important for Muslims to learn not to go into these two wrong paths.
Moreover, maybe you’d like to do a little Cartesian graph and find out what happens if you graph the number of Chapters [1 to 114] in the x axis, and the number of verses of each chapter [ ranging between 3 to 286] in the y axis.
I know you won’t do that, anyways, the result is, you will get a graph in the shape of the word Allah in Arabic.
Great, now tell me that illiterate Mohammed knew statistics.
The Vatican is 0.44 SQ KM. I am not suggesting building one in the Ka'bah. I did not even suggest building one in Mecca (although it is much larger than the Vatican). But Saudi Arabia is an area of about 865,000 square miles
So do you mean that it is possible to build a small mosque in the Vatican? Like a 10 meter squared mosque for example?
Certainly he would be afraid to admit it if he was, but as you indicate there are hundreds of thousands of guest workers, and they deserve a place to worship.
Guest workers should abide by the laws of the country in which they are going to, if they wish to pray in a church, they are free to go to any of the other 195 countries in the world. Saudi Arabia is under no obligation at all, of any international law or universal moral, to change its constitution in order to meet the needs of some servants and maids.
The government allows it, then the Islamists burn down his store.
you try to be funny. But no, the government allows it, and it remains there until the stupid Bush invades Iraq and bombs it, killing the Christian shopkeeper along with an entire neighborhood.
What Western Country forbids attending Friday Prayers. And I don't know of any that forbid wearing the Hijab. The Nijab, perhaps, because some men have worn the Nijab and robbed stores, where the owner dropped his guard, thinking they were women.
HAHA, HAHAHAHAHA.
Are you serious?
You’d better wake up if you are serious.
Schoolteachers were fired because they wore Hijab, girls were kicked out of school after being humiliated and had their Hijabs ripped off their heads in France. Countries like the US, Canada and the UK along with almost all non-Muslim countries do not allow the Muslim prayer to be called for at any given time, not even in Fridays or holidays, and they don’t allow the Muslim labors/employees/workers to take just a two hour break on Friday to attend the Friday prayer.
There is no Muslim country that forbids church bells to ring every day, all Christians working in governmental departments take their holidays days off freely (actually with Christmas they take two days off, 24th and 25th so they can shop/prepare for the eve one day ahead), most of Muslim countries have Sunday or Saturday as a national holiday in addition to Friday.
Maybe if you start answering some questions, to yourself before answering them to me, about Christianity, how come it doesn’t grant any rights to non-Christians like Islam does to non-Muslims? Or maybe you can tell me a little bit about the bloody history or the Church era and compare it to the time when the Islam was the biggest Empire ever found on earth, when for several decades not a single dispute or war happened and all people with their different religions and beliefs, lived in perfect harmony.
Are you sure that you still want to call it true religion of peace?
Maybe it is the religion of cowards.
do you live on mars my friend?
Jews in Israel do not attack if not attacked first?!
You had millions of Jews immigrating to Palestine since 1930s, killing thousands of people and kicking them out of their houses with the help of British Army...
I believe your history is a little confused. With the initial Balfour Declaration Jews did immigrate into greater Palestine (which included modern day Israel, West Bank, and Jordan (then called TransJordan). They bought land in all three areas from the people on the land then. When the Arabs bitched that Britain had given too much, they gave TransJordan to the Arabs, and they ran the Jews off, and did not pay them for their land. They had to buy new land when they got to the new State of Israel.
since then, thousands of mothers and children have died because of Israeli aggression against civilians. Even Israelis themselves admit that they do that! The Palestinian body count has crossed a million lives long time ago.
They have had many opportunities to have peace. Arafat was offerred almost all of what he said he wanted, including a piece of Jerusalem, and he turned it down.
Israel pulled out of Gaza and just gave it to the Arabs, and they could have had a country of their own, and they chose instead to fire rockets into Israel almost daily. They are savages who do not know what peace means. Even if Israel was not there, Hamas and Fatah would still be killing each other.
And ... I said Christians who are not more than 15% of population, live EQUALLY to Muslims, which part of this sentence you don't understand?
I understand a lot, including the fact that it is not true.
They are not second-class citizens! For God's sake, they don't even pay income tax!!!
Most of those countries do not have an income tax.
And can they build new churches?
Christians in a Muslim state have more rights than you do right now, even if you were living in the Vatican.
The Vatican is the Pope's home. I am as likely to live there as I am the White House.
But they certainly dont have more rights than I do living here in the USA.
Instead of you saying “give people a choice to convert, pay a tax to live as second class citizens, or die.” How about you say “allow them to embrace Islam if they wish to, and if they don’t then they can live and live peacefully and have all their rights including religious rights guaranteed.”
Does their word count the same as a Muslim's word in court? What about a Christian woman's word?
But hey, how about you read couple of paragraphs of history and see what Christians did to Muslims when they invaded the middle east. Do not tell me those were ‘bad’ Christians because the entire crusader campaigns began after the direct orders of the pope back then.
The pope cannot be wrong can he?
Christians did not spare one life, did not spare one soul. Muslims couldn’t even negotiate, or pay anything, or convert … they were just brutally killed. Men, Women and Children all alike.
Sounds about like what Muhammad did to the occupants of the countries he took over by the sword.
But I am not talking about the 8th century or 11th through 13th centuries (the Crusades), I am talking about the 21st century, and a desire to keep what we have, and not go back to the 8th century.
Christians killed Jews too and never spared a life! History records that crusaders were more monstrous and left much more destruction in Muslim lands even than what the Mongols had done in the thirteenth century.
The Mongols just wanted trade routes, the Crusades were to recapture land captured by the Muslims. But again I am not defending the crusades, I am talking about now.
True, and because He does not, it must not bother Him that much.
Wow, so, do you mean that God does not bother about his son being cursed or mocked? What kinds of a father is that?
A supernatural father, and I do not question Him.
That must be one careless God. Because if he created passion in the heart of men which make them rage in fury
That sounds more like what Satan would do.
if they sees their sons hurt, how come God did not have that passion toward whom you think is His son?
Jesus said If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic.. Which is the true Religion of Peace.
Wait, so, religion of peace means let everyone beat you up while you smile? And then have your stuff taken away and grin? Then have your sister raped and give them your mother afterwards? Great.
Then how come Christians go to wars?
We don't always leave it up to Him.
And how come Christians have this bloody history? Did Jesus say anything about murdering the guts out of Muslims?
No, Muhammad is the only one that addressed killing non believers. Christ said to tell them the truth, and let them decide whether to accept it.
How come then that happened in the crusades?
Again I am talking about the 21st century, not the 11 through the 13th century.
Peace cannot be maintained with passivism, there must be a force to maintain and keep the peace, and makes sure that no one violates this peace, and makes sure to punish those who attempt to violate it.
Using force to maintain the peace is ok with me. Using force to take someones land is not.
They only have to read the Arab Press to daily see cartoons making fun of Jews. I suspect some depict Moses. And probably some depict Christ or Christians.
I don’t think that this is true at all, I have never seen a cartoon making fun of Jews.
Look in any Arab paper in the Middle East: Egypt, Saudia Arabia, Pakistan, etc.
There might be many cartoons mocking Israelis, but not Jews [for their religion, that is].
They don't distinguish. They criticize their religion, race, and state.
Even if there were cartoons making fun of Jews, that still does not have to do anything with what I said. Mosses and Jesus are messengers that Muslims highly respect and believe in, regardless of what Jews and Christians believe in them. We are more entitled to believe in them than you, because both of Jews and Christians attempted to kill both Mosses and Jesus.
Christians did not exist when Moses was alive, and Christians are followers of Christ, who was crucified by the Romans, at the request of the Jewish Priesthood, who did not like the competition.
People burn buildings and kill people over a cartoon, and it is expressing love. Boy do you guys need to learn more about expressing love.
I don’t recall anyone being killed.
Then you were not paying attention. Some were killed, and others had fatwahs calling for them to be killed.
And yes. If someone harasses with your mother, you don’t tell him to harass with your father, no, you go and beat them up, that is how you prove that you love your mother.
Not me, I would protect my mother, and call the police.
Otherwise, you are not man enough, or you do not what love is.
I can separate love and anger. But then I am in tune with the 21st century, not the 8th century.
So "Fight... (even if they are) of the People of the Book," predates "take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors". It still abbrogates 3:64
No, fight those who broke the accord from the people of the book. Don’t try to manipulate words.
Why put them in the order of size?
They are not in order of size. God actually sorted them for many important reasons.
So you are contending that the Surahs are not in order of size?
Most importantly, to help non-Muslims understand Islam. After the opening, the first and longest chapter is about Jews, and the second is about Christians, and this introduction with these two chapters shows you what God ordered Jews and Christians and how Jews disobeyed and how Christians went astray. And this is very important for Muslims to learn not to go into these two wrong paths.
Moreover, maybe you’d like to do a little Cartesian graph and find out what happens if you graph the number of Chapters [1 to 114] in the x axis, and the number of verses of each chapter [ ranging between 3 to 286] in the y axis.
Size is not the number of verses, but the length of the Surah.
I know you won’t do that, anyways, the result is, you will get a graph in the shape of the word Allah in Arabic.
Or the shape of the swirl of soft ice cream from Dairy Queen.
Great, now tell me that illiterate Mohammed knew statistics.
He may have (I doube he had soft serv Ice Cream). The Arabs were good with numbers back then (our number system is called the Arabic Numbers, and we got the concept of zero from them. They did not maintain that thurst for knowledge; the thurst for blood overtok it.
The Vatican is 0.44 SQ KM. I am not suggesting building one in the Ka'bah. I did not even suggest building one in Mecca (although it is much larger than the Vatican). But Saudi Arabia is an area of about 865,000 square miles
So do you mean that it is possible to build a small mosque in the Vatican? Like a 10 meter squared mosque for example?
It would be physically possible, but I doubt it would be permitted, just as I doubt that they would permit hanging a cross in the Ka'bah (even though Muhammad did find a picture of Mary and the Christ child there). But I think it would be very reasonable to build one somewhere in Saudia Arabia, perhaps even in Mecca.
Certainly he would be afraid to admit it if he was, but as you indicate there are hundreds of thousands of guest workers, and they deserve a place to worship.
Guest workers should abide by the laws of the country in which they are going to, if they wish to pray in a church, they are free to go to any of the other 195 countries in the world. Saudi Arabia is under no obligation at all, of any international law or universal moral, to change its constitution in order to meet the needs of some servants and maids.
So rahter than letting Mosques be built in the US or in Europe, we should tell the immigrants if you want a Mosque, go to an Arab Country?
The government allows it, then the Islamists burn down his store.
you try to be funny. But no, the government allows it, and it remains there until the stupid Bush invades Iraq and bombs it, killing the Christian shopkeeper along with an entire neighborhood.
80% of the country (Kurds and Shias) seem happy having Saddam gone.
What Western Country forbids attending Friday Prayers. And I don't know of any that forbid wearing the Hijab. The Nijab, perhaps, because some men have worn the Nijab and robbed stores, where the owner dropped his guard, thinking they were women.
HAHA, HAHAHAHAHA.
Are you serious?
You’d better wake up if you are serious.
Schoolteachers were fired because they wore Hijab, girls were kicked out of school after being humiliated and had their Hijabs ripped off their heads in France.
France passed laws forbidding any religious symbols from being worn. Christians with large crosses visible were also challenged.
Countries like the US, Canada and the UK along with almost all non-Muslim countries do not allow the Muslim prayer to be called for at any given time,
They may not allow a nutcase with an amplified to broadcast a call to prayer, but they do not prohibit people from praying. You should get a wristwatch to tell time, and set an alarm on it to tell you when to go.
not even in Fridays or holidays, and they don’t allow the Muslim labors/employees/workers to take just a two hour break on Friday to attend the Friday prayer.
That is up to the individual employer. If you want a countrywide support for it, go live in a Muslim country.
There is no Muslim country that forbids church bells to ring every day,
Most don't even have church bells, and if they need repair they cannot repair them.
all Christians working in governmental departments take their holidays days off freely (actually with Christmas they take two days off, 24th and 25th so they can shop/prepare for the eve one day ahead), most of Muslim countries have Sunday or Saturday as a national holiday in addition to Friday.
Maybe if you start answering some questions, to yourself before answering them to me, about Christianity, how come it doesn’t grant any rights to non-Christians like Islam does to non-Muslims?
While the US was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, the Church does not control the government, and most of the Blue Laws (that forbade a store being open on both Saturday and Sunday) have been removed from the books.
And if you go to a Muslim country, professing to be a Christian, I suspect you will be very surprised at what they do and don't allow.
Or maybe you can tell me a little bit about the bloody history or the Church era and compare it to the time when the Islam was the biggest Empire ever found on earth, when for several decades not a single dispute or war happened and all people with their different religions and beliefs, lived in perfect harmony.
So you maintain this delusion by smoking hashish or something more powerful?
Are you sure that you still want to call it true religion of peace?
Maybe it is the religion of cowards.
It is certainly closer than Islam to being a religion of peace
Don,
you are just so wrong in so many things that I really do not have time to correct you.
you are so wrong about history of Israel, they did not buy lands, they wiped people out. and Jews were the ones who constantly attacked the Arabs and the Brits, while Arabs were the allies of the Brits.
and
"Using force to maintain the peace is ok with me. Using force to take someones land is not."
then how is it okay with you when you stand with israel?
how is ok with you when you try to justify the crusaders?
you, like your hero little-bush, both strongly believe in hypocro-Christianity. you both are Christians only when you want to.
you both are a shame on Christianity.
and, when you don't know how to respond, you just start attacking me personally? calling me a hashish smoker and just simply calling what i say untrue?
that is so immature.
I would have told you to read my post about why Islam is truly the religion of peace. but you are a narrow-minded piece of crap that adds only shame to Christianity.
So I suggest that you go learn your religion first, after you get slapped on both cheeks and run away, chicken.
Posting anonymously I don't know whether the last "Muslim" is the same as the one in the previous comments, but based on the transition from reasoned discussions to ad hominum attacks and unsubstantiated claims, I will assume it is someone else.
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